Two American Expats on Hemingway’s A Movable Feast and Life Abroad: S6E11

In December 2019 my dear friend Shannon Martin and I sat down and recorded an episode about The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway. We were so intrigued with the book that we wanted to repeat the process with the more autobiographical version of the book, A Moveable Feast.

And then we both left China and you know what happened.

We did record this follow up episode in mid-2020 but life was still hectic. So here it is, nearly a year later. Thank you to Shannon for being so patient during this time.

Original publication date: June 5, 2021

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Transcript

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Stephanie
Shannon, welcome back to Geopath's Books Return guest.

Shannon
Glad to be back. Yeah, we're reading always. Love more reading and more podcasts.

Stephanie
I know, I'm so excited to do this. We did the Sun Altar Raises book months and months and months ago. Another lifetime, another lifetime ago a few countries ago and blah blah blah. And we meant to do a six month or so catch up with the original the Movable Feast and then the world imploded. So yeah, so we're a few months later but we're still doing it. But we're both in China. When we did. We were. Were you in my apartment for that one?

Shannon
Yeah.

Stephanie
Yep. We're both in my apartment in Shanghai, China. Recording that one. And now we have. We are very, very different places.

Shannon
So let's do a quick and not seeing each anybody in person. I mean I know, right? Like thinking about doing it an interview face to face is so weird.

Stephanie
So I left Shanghai, China on December 31, arrived in Berlin, Germany January 1, spent one hour, actually one hour of the year in China in the airport. And yeah, I've been here the whole year. That's pretty much the whole, the whole trajectory. How long we will stay is the giant question mark that only Covid can answer. How about you?

Shannon
Covid and the, the German visa people like us, right?

Stephanie
Yeah. The office that I cannot pronounce the name of because it has like 10 syllables in it.

Shannon
Yeah. So we were in China, also in Shanghai and we actually left for Chinese New Year for a holiday in Spain. Oh, how quaint that seems now. And that was at the time when Covid was heating up in China. It was still very well, it always stayed pretty minor in Shanghai, but it was getting, it was seeming scary. I was then going to the US for conferences, so I was going to be on about a maybe, I don't know, something between two and three week time away. My husband ended up staying longer in Spain. We were just nervous about going back. A lot of uncertainty. So long story short, eventually we both ended up on the east coast of the US and at my parents, one of my parents homes. And here we are many months later. So we basically had someone ship us our stuff eventually from our apartment in Shanghai because it was due for renewal anyway and it wasn't looking good. And it was right at the time they actually banned all foreigners from coming back. So we've sort of been living the displaced hopping around while staying isolated lifestyle on the east coast of the US And I don't know if we ever talked about this in any of our episodes. But people used to ask, I'm sure people have asked you, are you going to go back home? Ever? Go back to the US and we always. My husband always said, absolutely not. And I always said, I don't plan to, but you never know what life will bring. And now I'm like, okay, see, that's why I said that.

Stephanie
You're much wiser.

Shannon
Yeah, we didn't plan to, but, you know, life had other plans for us for now. So that's where we are currently. But we're working on our next home base, hopefully in Spain, depending on what those are.

Stephanie
Yeah, by the time this comes out, you might actually have a result from that. And I might actually know if I got extended to stay in Germany.

Shannon
Hopefully it'll all be good news.

Stephanie
I know. I mean, although, honestly, as much as I would vehemently answer that question of are you going home? With a strong no at this point, it's been so difficult and not working while wanting to work for eight months has been so incredibly strange and stressful. And that at this point, I would just say whatever happens will be fine as long as I start to work soon. Because I'm going a little crazy. Not bored, but just with the isolation of COVID and not working. It's like a double blah. But we're not going to stay inside very long. We're not going to hit the cafes. We are following up. That's my attempt at a transition. We're going to follow up from our expat wanderings to the expat wanderings. Ernest Hemingway in Paris in Immovable Feast, a book that I feel like everybody in the world loves except for me. Spoiler. Sorry.

Shannon
Yeah, I know a lot of the things I listened to, the ratings were pretty high. It was a little bit of a mixed bag. What surprises me is how few people I've heard talk about it and that I've talked to. How many people have not read Hemingway or not reading? Like, maybe read one thing that they were required to in school, like the Old man in the sea, even though everyone knows him. But, like, very few people have read a lot of.

Stephanie
In the last episode, we talked a lot about how his Persona was so strong and how it was such a huge marketing pull. And. Yeah, it just. It's amazing how famous and ingrained into so many things that we talk about with American culture and with Paris and with expats and all of that. But the amount that people have read of him is amazingly low, which is very, very strange. Although if it were based on this, I would understand why. That's my own bias. I guess we should give an overall impression before I taint the listeners anymore. Shannon, did you like the book? Not like the book. What was your feeling on it? I.

Shannon
I didn't think it. I actually heard one review that was a description that I kind of can relate to. They called it like the B sides of the, you know, a B side album. They called it that. I felt like it was. That it was these little stories kind of just thrown together of his life. I found it a fast read. It's interesting. He has a great writing style. Like, there's no doubt about it, but it was just kind of. It's very scattered. I think if you're into that time period or those. The characters, you know, that are mostly very famous people, it's kind of a nice little sort of fantasy thing to, you know, kind of imagine that life there and. But between the two, that were in a way a similar kind of thing, I think. I definitely liked the Sun Also Rises more, but this one, I guess again, if you're really into those real life, you know, characters, then that's the appealing part of it, perhaps. And that interested me. I mean, it was a fast read.

Stephanie
When we were talking off of this, away from this interview. Geez Louise. When we were talking away from this interview, I was comparing it to like a very sloppy blog. It felt a lot like this is what I did today. Even if it was interesting or not interesting. I felt like he put it in here, which is fair enough. It is a diary of sorts, right? Or if not exactly a diary. But now that you're mentioning the characters, and I've heard. I heard a few other people mention, you know, the. The celebrity factor of. It's not quite a who's who or a tell all or anything, although it has moments of that it almost feels more like. What is it? Like a celebrity magazine in some parts. Like you're looking at the pictures and you're reading the. Like just the underlined subtitle or whatever, but you're not really reading the articles. You're like, oh, that happened. And then you're just turning the page, turn the page, turn the page. But yeah, his writing style is still really good.

Shannon
Yeah, I mean, it kind of is. It very much is kind of a diary because he basically, it was his notebooks that he kept. And then he. It was many, many years later. And that's what I did find interesting, especially going back and listening to other synopses and like reading about it. Because I had forgotten that, you know, this was about the 20s. But he wrote it at the. Towards the end of his life where he was having not an easy time of it, you know, killed himself, and then it got published afterwards. So he's putting that stuff back together. So really, I think the title is brilliant.

Stephanie
Yeah.

Shannon
I mean, of that. Of all which, he didn't come up with the title per se, but I think it's brilliant because it is. And that was one thing I really sort of related to as a traveler and expat is that that movable feast that you live. You can eat off of or live off of or whatever for the rest of your life, your. Your travels, your experiences. But that's such, like, sustenance when you've had different adventures. Because during COVID especially for me, I feel like my. I've been so thankful for the things that we did because I've been sort of living off of that. I kind of. So I think it's just interesting that way. And then I guess the celebrity piece is he probably he. Well, and his. The wife at the time who actually picked which chapters and stuff. I'm sure that, you know, he had a lot more of that just day to day. But then that wasn't what was selected for the book. So it's like, oh, this is about Scott Fitzgerald. That's something, you know, notable to put in. Yeah, that's kind of what got chosen.

Stephanie
Speaking of Scott, dear Scott, I made, like, maybe only three or four notes, really, and one of them was the. I put whiny sick guy next to it in chapter eight, but I don't. But we have different chapters because I guess we should go over this first before the whiny sick guy is. There's different versions of it. I think I might have the original because I don't have all the extra stuff in the. And whatnot. But you said yours has sketches and a different forward and things.

Shannon
Yeah, so I have the one. It was like. I believe it came out, I don't know, maybe like 2009. So his. The original one. His wife Mary Hemingway, put it, sort of put it together, edited it. There's a lot of criticism in both cases because she obviously selected it from her point of view and left out certain things that, like, made another wife look good. And, you know, a lot of people said those kind of things about it. But then on the other hand, then when it was redone by. I think it was. It's his son Patrick and grandson Sean that write the four words and Stuff. And I think they also took part in the editing and adding some stuff back in. It's sort of depending on how you look at it. Maybe it's a little more to the original because they put more. The extra parts are kind of sketchy.

Stephanie
Put it back in. Okay.

Shannon
Yeah. So they.

Stephanie
What are the sketches of?

Shannon
So they're basically more blog posts. So they're more random chapters that just didn't make it in. But the reason, I guess they didn't put them in as chapters is because they wanted to sort of stay true to that version. Mary did like, okay, here it is. And he chose to take these out for reasons. But then you can sort of see. So you almost see a work in progress a little more.

Stephanie
So it might actually be worth it if somebody's really interested to get to both of them and can kind of compare them. It sounds like.

Shannon
Yeah, because some part is one. There's a big part of it. That's where he takes the chapter. I guess the way he ended it or something about his. His wife at the time he left sort of towards the end. And he really contemplated different ways to approach that. And so if you're a writer and you're into Ernest Hemingway as a writer.

Stephanie
I think those really cool. That would really, really be interesting. I heard a couple of people say that the order is different in the two books. Also. I had taken it on historians, even though it seems diariesque. I hadn't really thought. It has to be in chronological order. So I guess the order wouldn't necessarily matter very much anyway.

Shannon
Yeah, they didn't put it together in chronological order, which I guess. Yeah, that's why it makes it feel very. It can be sort of. It's much more like a bunch of short stories than any kind of novel or anything.

Stephanie
Is there any part of it that really resonated with Shannon, the expatriates? Anything that seemed familiar either with where you are right now in your expat journey, temporarily repatriating, but not. Or just in general.

Shannon
I mean, the concept of the Movable Feast, for sure, definitely, I thought was something. And I guess. Yeah, because there was something where it said a memory or even a state of being that had become part of you, a thing that you could always have with you, no matter where you went or how you lived forever after, that you could never lose. And then it talks about an experience in space and time. And so, yeah, I could relate to that. And also sort of in thinking about him putting it together, relate to looking back to blogs Journals, whatever we might keep nowadays and sort of. And especially right now, because it's not, hopefully at the point where he was. End of life type reflection or depression, severe depression type reflections, he was going through and losing his memory, going through, you know, having to stop travel because of the virus. And so I definitely was doing that with particularly sort of going through Facebook pictures and stuff like that and looking back at memories and that kind of thing. So, yeah, I can see. And it's kind of cool with him, the little snapshots of people, you know, I can kind of see thinking about that in terms of drink, characters that maybe we've come across.

Stephanie
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Oh, I. Yeah, we. I don't know.

Shannon
I don't even know if we want.

Stephanie
To talk about the whiny sick guy part. That was. That felt very long. That felt like a Seth Rogen movie that I didn't want to see. The whole part where he's talking about it was absolute Scott Fitzgerald in that chapter. Right. The chapter eight, when it was Scott that was. Thought he was incredibly sick. And instead of.

Shannon
Oh, yeah, about the thermometer. Yeah, it's interesting with F. Scott Fitzgerald in this book. I mean, I don't know. The one thing I really didn't like is I felt like Hemingway was being very unpleasant towards a lot of people.

Stephanie
Very unpleasant.

Shannon
And particularly F. Scott Fitzgerald. But I know there was some. They were friends, but then there was some falling out. But I mean, that piece, I mean, as one of the podcasts I think we listened to, said, I mean, he emasculated him in this book, like, masterfully.

Stephanie
Oh, the penis part of the.

Shannon
Yeah, the thermometer thing. Because he was. He was so whiny and he looked like a hypochondriac.

Stephanie
And honestly, I. I left that part. It wasn't just how he was painting Scott or how Scott came across. It was. For me, it was like, well, if you're that annoyed with how this person is acting, why are you around him so much? Like, why is he your quote unquote friend if you really don't like who he is? Like, that was the weirdest part for me. But, yeah, I think Scott was asking for a thermometer and Hemingway ordered drinks or something like that? And I'm like, that's mean.

Shannon
Yeah. He also said on the drive back, it was as if he had to sort of watch over Scott. Scott obviously had some troubles and Zelda sounds like she was top one, but like, oh, I have to keep him from drinking. So we'll just get a bottle of wine with lunch on the drive home. So it was definitely different times then. Yeah, he definitely. I mean, you could sense this rivalry, and it felt just kind of childish. Like, I could see, like Hemingway. You don't need to be so jealous of Fitzgerald, but it clearly seems like he was jealous of his success.

Stephanie
Very, very. And I think you tapped into a big part of my distaste for it. I like the idea of this book, and I definitely like what it turned into with the Sun Also Rises. But there is such a kind of. I wrote down snarky, but I don't think snarky is the right idea. I think it's more of what you're saying of the jealousy and the meanness in it towards a lot of people that he mentions would just rub me the wrong way. I'm like, I understand if you want to just write that to process things for yourself, but to want it to be out in the world in that form when you haven't really processed it and you're just reacting to just being that immature towards people that were. Chose to be around. I don't know why that would be a good idea.

Shannon
Yeah, I think he. It's funny and, you know, and the Sun Also Rises, there were funny characters. And here it did. It took on that sort of meanness or pettiness. And I'm wondering how much. I mean, obviously he wrote the notebooks in the time, but then he put it together and wrote it how he wanted it to be out there later. And it was time when he was severely depressed, when he was coming to terms. It was the last professional work he really did. And then, like, literally right before or right at the end of his life, you know, he had been doing ect, so he started losing his memory and he couldn't write anymore at all. So I don't know if that colored in at all or if he was. If he originally, in his notebooks, wrote that or like you said, wrote the snarky things. But it was more. This is my journal. Okay. I'm irritated with someone. So of course you might write.

Stephanie
There's nothing wrong with that. That's a good cathartic use of pen and paper. Yeah, it would be pen and paper or typewriter. I don't remember exactly what he wrote with. But yeah, no, that's fine. You're right. You're right. Yeah. His mental health might have tainted it. Yeah.

Shannon
But then you would also think that. I'm wondering, what was Mary Hemingway's perspective when she was putting it out there? I mean, in a way, she would say. I mean, maybe she. Maybe that was how he did it. And she thought, well, that's what he's. How he's looking back on it now. I'll put it out there like that. But I don't know.

Stephanie
I don't know. There's a lot of questions. It's a lot of questions on why what this would do, why this would go into the world. Not that a Sun, also race. It would seriously change anybody in any serious way. But it just felt more. It just felt less damaging, I guess, is what I want to say.

Shannon
Yeah, it was a lot of the positive parts of this book and the lifestyle and all that, but in a much more. You know, there were people there with, you know, different issues and there were different funny kind of stories, but I guess also because it was a fictionalized version, it makes it a little better.

Stephanie
Yeah, I mean, there definitely was still a dark undertone to them. You could tell that they were. They weren't lost in trying to, like, medicate with unsavory factors of their lives and things. But it wasn't quite as dark as this.

Shannon
Yeah. Yeah. And because, you know, these were the actual people. And even if Sun Also Rises, even if it was so and so person is quite obviously so and so. You know, it's still a little different when there's a different name behind it. Or maybe it's a composite of a couple people when it's. You're out and out saying, F. Scott Fitzgerald. Ezra Pound. There was another guy that he was. Really. His name was that. I think it was somebody that knew Ezra Pound, but that he described as, like, the eyes of an unsuccessful rapist.

Stephanie
Yes, I remember that part. And I went, wow. Hold on. What? I think I was too shocked to even note it, but I definitely remember that part. Was that the same. Wait, the opium moment was that. That was Donner or something? I didn't quite catch that.

Shannon
Yeah, that was like Dunning or something.

Stephanie
Dunning. Dunning, that's right. Is that the same man or a different man?

Shannon
No, I think it was a different guy.

Stephanie
See, the harshness is just so strong.

Shannon
Yeah. And I just. I'm gonna read one podcast I listened to did this. I think he went back and looked at the Wikipedia pages for all the people. I mean, he knew, you know, F. Scott Fitzgerald. But some of these other people, I mean, they are also famous in their own right. So I'd love to read more about, you know, and if there's any information about what relationship they had with Hemingway. And so I guess obviously I have complicated relationships, sort of competitors, but yet colleagues and supportive of each other. And then they were all kind of in this impoverished and trying to seed and relationships and lots of drinking and.

Stephanie
Yeah, I was gonna say that like on top of everything else, you have a lot of time between when it happened and when he wrote it and a lot of alcohol at the time that he was experiencing it, that they were all experiencing it. So there's a lot of things that could skew what actually happened and what people were like to a degree.

Shannon
Yeah. Maybe that's why a lot of people like it because it has that sort of celebrity tell all factor and because it is sort of snarky and you know, because he's clever with, with that stuff in a way. But that's what you know. And it did read quickly in interest. It kept my interest. But then I started sort of started feeling unease about it.

Stephanie
Yeah. And when I was talking to my husband about it this morning, I'm like, I just can't, I just can't put my finger on it. We have, we have now. But I couldn't put my finger on the disease that I had with it. But I just, just couldn't understand why so many people refer to it so often as like, oh, you have to read this, you have to read this. And he, he said rather clever thing. He said that people are probably attached to what they know Hemingway turned out to be as a person and his life and his lifestyle and his success. So they're probably like, hey, he ended up like this, so maybe this is the way we need to be towards people and blah, blah, blah. Maybe they just liked it because of who he turned into.

Shannon
True, true. Have you ever read any other expat, either like a blog, a journal, or even if it's a fictionalized book that had that. I mean, there's a lot of them that are about characters they meet along the way and funny stories. But have you ever read one that had anything like this in terms of like negative about the characters?

Stephanie
Yes, but not very much of it because I don't like it. I don't know why I would, why that would need to be said out loud. I mean, I guess if somebody was actually harming other people and they needed to be stopped, I could see that. But again, why would that be in a blog or a book? That should be some sort of legal matter or something. Your police matter or something. But, yeah, I've come across it especially when I used to blog my own stuff. I made a point not to talk about specific people and especially not names when it was happening or even thereafter. And so when I ran across other blogs where people started ripping apart people in the same city or even small town, I just was like, what. Why. Why is this happening? This just doesn't seem about things that aren't very important. But, like, seriously, attacking character, it's just never really sat well with me. I don't know. How about you?

Shannon
Not so much. No, I don't. I haven't really. I hear people. People sort of mention things about other people. You know, in the expat circles, there's gonna be, like, animosity towards people that are, you know, with their spouse, that aren't working. Oh, they. They this and they that or whatever they're. Or the opposite. Or, you know, they'll be like, oh, they, you know, just the differences and stuff. And then people with crazy stories, doing silly things, you know, and people. The word will go around about that. But that's more like. Word mal. I don't remember anyone writing about it or anything.

Stephanie
Yeah.

Shannon
And, yeah, I think it's. It's interesting, but it's also weird because, I mean, for these were. Some of these people are probably fairly ancillary to him, but I'm significant enough that he really remembers them so many years later.

Stephanie
Yeah.

Shannon
And most of them are pretty famous, but I think a lot of them are friends. So it's not just even. Oh, this crazy expat was doing this funny. You know, there was this story. It's like, oh, my good friend foibles of his relationship.

Stephanie
That was the weirdest, weirdest part, because the most frequent, like, bitter kind of angry expat stuff that I've read, sparing as it may be, was more about individuals who were locals. Like, it was this big culture clash. Right. I can't believe he did this. This must be what Koreans do. This must be what Chinese people do. They would just take one person's slightly rude behavior and just blow it up to this giant cultural norm. But they would start describing the person and sometimes name them, and I'm just. Yeah, I don't know. But it was definitely more of blowing up to a bigger thing. But he was actually attacking. Yeah, that's a good point. He was actually attacking people within his own circle. A lot of them. If not all of them were Americans, too.

Shannon
Yeah, it's much more like the tell all. Like, I can see it with. I've heard what you're talking about, about expats talking about local behavior and stuff, and then similarly other expats talking about, like, the certain type of expat, like the American that, you know, doesn't try to integrate into the culture all around. So this person, oh, he's been in this country for so many years and he's never tried to learn language and he acts this way and blah, blah, blah, so that kind of thing. But that's more about like a type. I mean, that's not a personal attack. And he was more getting at their character and their relationship, you know, that hadn't. Didn't have much. I don't know how much of this was creative. They were all other creatives. So was it creative jealousy or something? I mean, he obviously had a concern for F. Scott Fitzgerald in terms of the relationship with Zelda. I mean, it was sort of a. He had this concern and wanting to help him at the same time. It's completely emasculating. And so it was complicated.

Stephanie
It was very, very complicated. Yeah, that relationship confuses me, but. Oh, man.

Shannon
Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie
No, that's a really good point. And how much of that is. Because he's got kind of got the double whammy of the expat circle and then the writing, the writer circle. And so he's got like two group and like, where the Venn diagram met. And with the two meeting, it could be like, if you take the cattiness of that expat. Oh, look what he's doing. And then the writers. Sorry, writers. But it can get catty in writing circles and especially creative writing circles that he was probably running in. And so that combined together. Maybe that's where some of this meanness came from. I don't know. I'm totally just painting different strokes here.

Shannon
Yeah, I mean. I mean, they had a lot of. There were a lot of complications in their. In all their lives because they were, you know, they had experienced war. So there's. There's a lot of mental health things probably going on underlying all this stuff. Zelda was incredibly, like, had incredible mental health issues, from what I understand. And her. She and Scott Fitzgerald, it was like a intense but wild love story, you know, super codependent, super problematic. You know, all kinds of things happened, I guess, in that. So, yeah, I guess they were all. But he was sort of holding himself up as, like the steady one in all the situations.

Stephanie
And I was just thinking the physical problem he had from A Sun Also Rises. Did that show up in here? Because I don't remember that being in there at all. So that was the plot device that they used in there. Oh, interesting, huh? Okay. So, yeah, so they made him more damaged and the Sun Also Rises, but in this, it's just like more of the cocky Hemingway.

Shannon
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was sort of like everybody else. They were characters and he was there and he. Actually, there was something about. Now I'm trying to remember. There was something also about them changing the. That he had written a lot of it in second person or. I don't remember. There was something about that I read in the foreword too, so I wonder how that was different. Yeah, he did a lot of writing. You something, something, something. And I can't remember if my version.

Stephanie
Was that one for this one or for a Sun Alter Rises for this one. No way. That's not Diary like, is it?

Shannon
This was first person, right?

Stephanie
Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I'm double checking right now. I did it on audio, but I. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see I. All over the page. Yeah, yeah. That's really strange. Why would. Well, he was experimenting. He did definitely try different writing styles and things. So I don't blame him at all for experimenting. But that seems like a weird choice for Diary.

Shannon
Yeah, I see that there's some variety because he's on the hunger chapter or whatever. It's a lot of. Yeah, you got hungry when you did not eat in paradise. That was pretty interesting. The hunger part and memory is hunger or something.

Stephanie
Yes. I feel like if I ever came back to this book, I would probably just come back to that chapter. That was pretty close to the beginning, wasn't it? And I thought, oh, now it's starting to take off. Okay, this is good. I had to stop at the end of that short chapter and think about it for a while because I really loved what he did with all of that. And then it didn't keep going with that, but I loved all of that.

Shannon
Yeah, I remember. Well, I remember the part about memory is as a certain kind of hunger. That's what I thought was really interesting. The hunger for the physical hunger and then the hunger for memory. And he talked about. Yeah. And it is funny. Then he turns on a dime because I have that highlighted. And then the next thing I've highlighted is his description of the guy that he says his eyes are unsuccessful. The eyes of an unsuccessful rapist. And he also calls him Toe Jam. So he really goes from one extreme to the other. Like, beautiful descriptions of things to then. Yeah, let's see the part about hunger. Yeah, well, this part was just where he's talking about walking by the bake shops and stuff. So there are parts that are very evocative, too. Like that when he talked about that, I could smell. I was like, I can smell that right now.

Stephanie
And embarrassingly, as I was really, really enjoying the hunger chapter, which is not actually called Hunger, it didn't dawn on me to make a connection to the actual name of the book, like, the Movable Feast. Like, for some reason, I didn't go from hunger in all of those different layers to the actual theme that runs throughout probably the entire book. And I didn't feel like that necessarily ran through the entire book.

Shannon
Hunger was good. Discipline, I think, was that one. Hunger was good. It was chapter eight in my book. Yeah. And I think. I mean, I guess the title to me is more about the idea that it's this. Well, I mean, I guess it does relate back to that. This memory, this feast, you know, thing you can feast on in life memory. And, like, it fills a certain hunger. And that hunger is actually maybe more painful than the hunger of being hungry.

Stephanie
Okay, so keeping going with this, then maybe some of the meanness and bitterness was part of the uncomfortableness of the hunger. I don't know.

Shannon
Yeah. And I think probably when he was putting it back to putting it together, he had that. He was in that state. I mean, he was in the state of remembering back, looking at these kind of good times, but feeling a lot of. And probably at that time, let's see, Escott Vegeta would have been dead already. Right. I think before probably there still was that lingering a lot of bitterness because, I mean, the Great Gatsby just got so much more attention. I think then, you know, a lot of Hemingway stuff at the time, probably he probably felt. So maybe at this point in life when he kind of knew he wasn't gonna be able to probably do anything more. Yeah, there's probably a lot of bitterness.

Stephanie
He had a fair amount of notoriety during his lifetime, though, didn't he?

Shannon
He did, yeah. And I mean, I don't think anyone would say, oh, poor him, like, he didn't have any, but he might have felt that way anyway, especially considering how depressed he was.

Stephanie
Yeah.

Shannon
And knowing he was losing the ability there. That was like the thing he lived and died for, you know?

Stephanie
Are there any other parts of the book that were of interest or confusing or odd or funny? The stuff I listened to today, they kept talking about the humor much more than I picked up on the humor. But there were definitely clever moments. But what's your viewpoint on the humor after that?

Shannon
I think it was that it was that snarky humor a lot. I mean, it was humor, but it was humor sort of making like. I think they would say. People would say the chapter, they were thinking stuff about the emasculating of Scott, about the penis size and stuff that was funny. But to me, it was funny. But then I started to think, oh, that's kinda. I mean, actually, when I read it, I have to say I was kind of giggling along. Like, this is so silly. These boys, like, going through this move to compare. Don't worry, you're okay. Because the statue, it doesn't look much different. So it was funny. But then that feeling sunk in.

Stephanie
So is this your second read of the book?

Shannon
No, I. Well, I think I might have read it a long time ago, but I didn't really remember it very much. I read it almost like it was almost two months ago now. So I went back in the last couple days and started going through a lot of it. And that's where after I read it this time, and then as I was rereading it, that's when I was really thinking more about. I don't know, about this humor.

Stephanie
Yeah. And going back to what you asked earlier about reading other expat things. I'm thinking about, like, expat books that I've read that are much more current. They do tend to do more of the quirkiness of the culture that they're kind of learning versus this very, very insular experience. At least the way he portrays it. He doesn't really talk about Parisians or French people at all.

Shannon
It almost seemed to be a very different sort of way. I mean, I feel like when they were there, they were going to this place to experience what it was and to have it as, like, a place to write. It was kind of their own place, so it almost wasn't. I mean, I guess that's a positive side. They were really much more sort of integrated with the language, and they weren't looking at it as, like, oh, this trip to this foreign culture. Paris was like a place to go for that set of people, not to almost make it. To make it a home.

Stephanie
Right.

Shannon
So I think they really looked up to that culture.

Stephanie
Huh. I don't know. Were there things that he said in that vein?

Shannon
Well, I mean, I'm trying to think of the French people that made an appearance in it, and it was sort of ancillary. There was a. I don't know if it was the concierge or the owner or something in his building that was kind of negative towards Ezra Pound or somebody. When they came in, there were the waiters at the one place. Remember? They had to, like, shave their mustaches.

Stephanie
Yeah, I remember that part. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were, like, tiny appearances.

Shannon
Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie
Characters.

Shannon
And it was never. They weren't ever really, like, put in any kind of cultural stereotype per se. They had certain quirks, but it never seemed like, oh, French people do this or something. So, yeah, I think they really sort of. It's interesting because I don't know, what, is it, good or bad? They kind of, again, were making that their home, but then they also almost were not really. It was almost all about us. We're the important ones in this.

Stephanie
That could be their age, too. I mean, they were pretty young when they were there.

Shannon
I don't know.

Stephanie
I don't know. We kept saying how poor they were, so maybe they didn't actually. They did go to a lot of cafes and things, and they did have a lot of social outings, but maybe they went to the equivalent of, like, happy hours or things and all stayed together and got the cheap stuff and left. I mean, are there such things as happy hours in Paris in the 1920s? I don't know. I'm just trying to think. I'm flashing back to younger me and staying at hostels and going to happy hours and then leaving a little too tipsy way too early when the sun was still out and going, wait, the rest of the night's still happening, and I can't function. Were they doing the equivalent of that because of the lack of funds?

Shannon
Yeah.

Stephanie
So, yeah, there's.

Shannon
Yeah, they're very. And I mean, F. Scott Fitzgerald had already. When he's in this book, he had already published the Great Gatsby. Right. And he was doing magazine stories for money. So he had. It seems like he would have had decent money coming in, but definitely. Well, Hemingway had given up sort of his work, paying work, so I imagine. Yeah, there was really no income.

Stephanie
They were.

Shannon
It's not royal, but something impoverished, like a. Like, I don't know. There's a description that I can't think of, but they were noboy impoverished or something.

Stephanie
I don't know. Oh, okay.

Shannon
Yeah.

Stephanie
Whatever it is. I think that's where I am right now.

Shannon
That may also relate to why certain people we listen to liked it. Because one podcast I listened to maybe two, they specifically mentioned that it's like the hipsters of the 20s and they considered themselves sort of artsy hipster types, and they sort of really related to. Oh, this is our kind of book. This is how we envisioned ourselves being.

Stephanie
Okay.

Shannon
So I think it's a lot of that.

Stephanie
Yeah, yeah, yeah, gotcha. So that does fit into the hostel vibe, kind of.

Shannon
Yeah, it was definitely the art. And that's what I did sort of enjoy about it.

Stephanie
And.

Shannon
And the other book in that way is that I felt like it sort of transported me. And everyone that mentioned this book in different reviews and stuff had not read a lot of Hemingway. And then the other big thing that a lot of them mentioned was Midnight in Paris, the movie, bringing them to this book. And I think there was an article I think I sent you that said this became really popular in France after the terrorist attacks. So it was sort of a similar thing, I think, where it was kind of nostalgic about the beauty of France, the beauty of Paris, I guess. But also that movie, I think, has done more than anything. I would say he has to credit a lot of his current sales today, all the younger people. That was the reason they read it.

Stephanie
Yeah. Well, other than the Elizabeth Shue character, who I understand why she's in there, but, man, I love her, but I hate her in that movie. Other than her, I think that movie. If I had to rate, like all three, two books in the movie, I would put the movie first, Sun Also Rises and then A Movable Feast in my list of enjoyableness.

Shannon
Yeah. So I think it's bringing a lot of people to this book that wouldn't have read it otherwise. They find that movie, or even if they haven't watched the movie, they hear about the movie and then they, oh, this is the book it's based on. And so that seemed to be. Everybody I was listening to was talking about that.

Stephanie
Yeah.

Shannon
But, yeah, I go back and watch that movie, I mean, because it still had elements of it. Like there was this Fitzgerald character and there was conflict with Zelda and things in there. But because it was more of a fictionalized movie kind of thing, it just wasn't as pointed.

Stephanie
No. And they definitely had to spend a fair bit of time on the main character in his family relationship. And the whole thing of nostalgia being, you know, exactly what it is, just a desire for something that doesn't exist that you don't want anyway. So they really, really focus honed in on that. Whereas I don't think this is necessary or nostalgic. It's a little too bitter for anyone to.

Shannon
Yeah, I think reading as a reader, it is. That's what I think people like about it. For me, I do get that it's the same. It's the same thing that draws me to. This draws me also to a lot of Europe, World War II stories I read all the time. The same thing that draws me to travel. I think it's this. It's this sort of adventure for the mind or this like, going to a different time or place. And to me, these times are very iconic. They're like traveling to a place, you know, even though I can go to Paris now, but visiting Paris in the twenties, it's very, you know, it's sort of a special thing. That's travel through book.

Stephanie
That's very, very, very true. I think for me, I was just a little bitter because I want a little more place and more local people into these kinds of books. And I felt a little bit robbed of that. So I was just like, wait, what? Okay, yeah, we got. We got you. We got it. But the place, because the place was so different. Like, we think of Paris now, or even Paris of 10, 20 years ago, but that's not what it was like after the war. Like, the reason they were all there is because it was decimated and very cheap to live there. It's a huge part of why they were there. And I kind of wanted to see more of that, but that's not the kind of book it was.

Shannon
Yeah, I mean, I feel like. I feel like it could have been. And that was probably why we liked Sun Ultra Rises. We liked that better because I think it definitely got into it described the cafes more and then the travel to Spain, and there was definitely more of that. Yeah, this could have almost been. You knew that they were there because of the way they were and the characters and the situation, but you almost could have placed it anywhere.

Stephanie
That's very true. That's very, very, very true. Yeah, it definitely made me appreciate editors. Not in a mean way, because like I said, this is mostly meant to just kind of get the day's events out and that kind of thing so many years later, just to make peace with life. I get that. That makes sense. But as far as a full piece of something that you want to go into the world and not necessarily teach people something, but leave people with something. I feel like a Sun Also Rises delivery is a little bit better on that. At least for me. For me, I definitely hands down like that one better.

Shannon
How do you feel like it ties in? Because we did talk a lot last time about the him as a personality and that kind of stuff. And then this is more of like a celebrity tell all. And he's. And his personality. And I feel since he was doing it at the end of life, it's almost sort of related to that because it's not it's not him just writing his novel or his whatever. This is his. Because I am famous and these people are famous I'm writing about. How do you feel like that tied in?

Stephanie
Oh, gosh, I wish I had a raw sample of him from that time period to compare to this because I don't know if it's like you said, if it's just because of what was happening to him mentally and stuff, if that's where the mean spirited stuff comes from or if that really was the raw him and then he just got polished because of all the other stuff by people that wanted to sell him to the public. So I don't really know. It made me wonder if he was that bitter the whole time and it was polished by others or if he grew into that because of life. This is definitely something 2020 connects to. My own expat experience is that things build up like life builds up. And when many bad things happen at once, 2020, it can have a really straining effect on a person. That I completely and utterly relate to.

Shannon
I really don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just, I was just wondering if this book would. Well, I mean, it's all about all different famous people, so. But I just, I feel like the whole reason it is anything is because it is Hemingway. It's not. It has nothing to do with his writing. Even though he does have. Writing is good. But it wouldn't be interesting if it wasn't Hemingway and Ezra Pound and F. Scott Fitzgerald and things like that. This was, you know, my blog. I mean my. I would be proud if that was how good my writing was, but I just don't know that it would go viral or anything.

Stephanie
That would be an interesting experiment. Yeah. Is to change the name, change the author, change the names of the famous people, put it in the hands of people who don't know it and kind of see their reaction to it.

Shannon
Yeah.

Stephanie
I really do think being from him has a huge part of why people like it. Yeah. Other than those moments, those gem moments that are interesting or thought provoking, it's just not as many and not as, I don't know, not as polished.

Shannon
Yeah, I think comparing the two, the fictionalized version, which also takes some different side trips and stuff, but I think that's much more the travel expat, you know, post war generation thing. And then this one is just more. I mean, it's a bit of that. But then it's much more focused on the famous people and what happened to them. Nothing wrong with it. Just two different types of things.

Stephanie
And that's why I think with hearing a lot of people saying they really love it because that's what they're kind of getting out of it. And I did too find that interesting. And to imagine that time where they're all. It just seems so wild to think of them just hanging out in the cafes. And the one. There's the one bartender coffee at the coffee place where the guy was like, tell me some stories, I'll see if I. And I think he was talking about God, if I'll remember him. And I was thinking, it's so crazy. These people that worked at these cafes are like, I don't even know who these smooths are, you know?

Shannon
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephanie
No, that's very true. That's very true. And I actually wrote down in my notes, like, what is the Paris of now? Or who is the Hemingway of now? Where are these places where these people who are going to be famous in like 10 or 20 years, where are they all kind of probably. Like a less affordable place that's really easy to live in without making a lot of their artists and that kind of thing. Like, where is that place now?

Shannon
I don't know, because what people are doing and there are places, but a lot of them are doing business things. Some are doing creative things. But it's a lot. I know a lot of people are like in Bali and Chiang Mai or were, and some doing very creative things too. But I don't know if they're. I don't know. Today we have such a different version of what a celebrity. I mean, you do have certainly very famous and very popular and very authors.

Stephanie
Okay. I thought you were gonna say the word influencer.

Shannon
Please don't say it. Yeah, but that's what I think. The influencers are hanging out more in the digital nomad business startups and stuff. But there are creative types there. But as far as who we would. Then who 10 years from now we would see as famous. Those would be like actors. I mean, the only thing I can think of is like, Eat, pray, love. Elizabeth Coburn. She was going to the, you know.

Stephanie
Yeah, but was she. Were there with the people that she mentioned in the book, did they become like creative famous people in of their own?

Shannon
Not so much back then, no. And that's what I mean. I don't think there's this like writerly academic circle. And I know I have a friend who is a real old school academic. She wants there to be like the Greek salons where people sit around. And she's in Europe now. I think people wanting that go more to the stability of Europe and some of the older academia and stuff. So the worlds are kind of separated now. I think in a way there's not. And there's not the support for that the way now. Even for authors and people that become very famous from something literary, there's all this need to be an influencer.

Stephanie
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I stopped writing a long time ago, but I know in podcasting I keep hearing more and more and more and more produce your creative thing 20% and market 80%. So if writing is anything like that now, that's very little writing. 20% of the time you're writing. But I can't do that because that's just. That's 80%, 80%. I might as well just get a job in marketing.

Shannon
I know I heard an interview with Harlan Coben. Do you know who that is? He writes these massively popular mystery kind of things. Some of the main TV series. He's massively successful. But he actually was saying, I don't play that game. I write. I believe you should write to write. But he certainly has huge following. He was like, if you write the quality, it comes. But I think it's. It's hard.

Stephanie
It is. And there's nothing wrong with sharing process as you're going along. But 20%, 80%. That doesn't sound like that. It sounds like you're mostly doing the marketing of the work more than doing the creative thing. So yeah, I think there has been a definite big shift in that.

Shannon
I don't know, it's hard to almost live that impoverished writer life now. We don't really see it that way. I think a lot of times people see it as I want to write a book to become rich and famous. And then back then they were actually giving up the good paying jobs to do the thing and they weren't really concerned that they were going to make money.

Stephanie
Well also post World War I the cost of living was incredibly low compared to now. Like the skyrocketing. Even cheap rents in a lot of places in the world are no longer cheap. It's amazing to me how expensive life is right now. So it would be incredibly hard unless you were staying with your parents for a really long time or just kicking it on your friends couches consecutively. I mean it'd be really, really hard to be that non working.

Shannon
That's why when we were thinking about what it compared to, I was thinking more of the Southeast Asia digital nomads.

Stephanie
Yeah.

Shannon
Or not even digital nomad necessarily. Just nomad. You know, people that maybe are doing couch surfing and hostels and working from job to job kind of thing is comparable but not to what they were. It's totally different.

Stephanie
We need to form some kind of place.

Shannon
Right. Well now the places that are after Covid are really trying to attract people to come that don't need a job there. There's. They're doing it in Barbados, they're doing in Georgia and Estonia. New like digital nomads. Those could be. It could. I don't really see it in Barbados but I can imagine it happening in Georgia and Tbilisi. It already has quite a lot of that creative energy and stuff right now. And in Estonia I can see being.

Stephanie
And Estonia has the. What is that called? The citizenship. No, the. There's something. E residency.

Shannon
So they've had that. But you weren't actually able to be a resident. You couldn't be there. It's just for. But now they're actually trying to do a real, true digital nomad visa, like Georgia is doing.

Stephanie
Oh, my God.

Shannon
Go there. And actually, I may need to look.

Stephanie
Into that soon, actually.

Shannon
Yeah. Georgia was on. Georgia is heavily on my radar. If things don't work out for us. Georgia sounds very fascinating and very. Yeah. Very appealing.

Stephanie
Wow. Okay.

Shannon
Estonia is cool, too. Yeah. But I think theirs isn't quite. Well, I guess they're all in the same stage where they're just kind of starting that. Yeah.

Stephanie
And I think Estonia is a higher cost of living. I'm just thinking after all these months of unemployment, I'm gonna need a place that's not that expensive to start with.

Shannon
Georgia seems pretty reasonable. Barbados isn't. Isn't great for that because it's. I can't.

Stephanie
I can't do that weather. I can't do that heat anymore. I can't. I think Vietnam is my last. No, Vietnam. Malaysia, whatever. The last very hot place I was living in. That was it. Because it was too many years. And I'm just. Yeah. There's nothing like 90 degrees Fahrenheit for me to remember that I can't do this year round anymore. And I think Barbados is like that all year. Right. Because they're.

Shannon
Well, I don't know. It's very islandy, so it may be pretty breezy, but it's probably pretty humid.

Stephanie
Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon
No, no, no, no, no.

Stephanie
All right. So any. Any lingering finer thoughts? Are we both. Both there? Are we both leaning towards The Sun Also Rises between the two?

Shannon
I would say. Yeah. I wouldn't say don't read this. Especially if you have an interest in Hemingway and those characters of that time.

Stephanie
Yeah.

Shannon
But it's. It's just. You gotta know. It's kind of sketches. That's why I call it sketches. Collected sketches, which he was gonna call it The Paris Sketches, so that makes sense.

Stephanie
That makes a lot more sense. And I like the idea of having both versions and comparing the two, especially since it sounds like in the newer version, he starts to show you his writing process. So I think that would be an interesting thing to sit down with and play with.
All right. I don't even know how to end this. I feel like there needs to be. What was that funny joke from The Sun Also Rises with the dog. The stuffed dogs. I feel like we need a stuffed dog moment to end this one. Yeah.

Shannon
The stuff. This would be the statues in the Louvre. Yeah, that could be risque.